What? Are you kidding me? Tell me that this is really a joke and not something a ten year old will say to another ten year old.
The reality is, my wife just got off the phone with her son and found out the reason why he does not want to attend Church anymore is due to his best friend having told him, a few weeks ago, that because he was Mormon, he was destined for Hell.
While I do not agree with someone taking such a serious judgment call that is for God and God alone as their own responsibility, the fact is, in our day and age as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, our children are facing a very brooding world where the very thought of true religion and true belief in God is growing darker and darker. Men becoming more fascinated with their own lusts and desires. The destruction of families, the attack on the central sacred institution that God himself established in the Garden of Eden – Marriage is being underminded by self-gratifying lust seekers. Even still, because our children are Latter-day Saints, they are facing a world where children from mainstream Christian homes are being taught how to “witness” in ways that are demeaning, judgmental and hateful.
Now, don’t get me wrong. Understandably, it is one thing to stand on the Word of God, stand on the truth and reality of scripture and declare that there is something false, that something is not right and that people need to be repenting before their Lord God Almighty. Yet, it is another thing taken upon one’s self the very authority of condemning someone to eternal punishment that solely and only belongs to God.
This is the pious attitude of Christians these days. This is the attitude of Satan. A rebellious and pious attitude of taking upon themselves to not call someone unto repentance and to come unto Christ, but to declare Because you are a Mormon, you are going to hell. Guess what. Because the parents of this ten year old has quite possibly taught him this, my wife’s son refuses to attitude church on the fear that if he grows in the Truth and Reality of the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored in these last days, that he is buying into this great deception and lie of Satan.
To all Christians: God loves you, Christ loves you, but how dare you possess the audacity and take upon yourself the very mantle of God and decree who is going to heaven and be saved and who is not going to go to heaven but face condemnation.
I want one Christian Believer to prove to me that these words are in the Bible, the Inerrant Word of God:
Ye, and if thou be a Mormon, thou are going to Hell! Show me were in the KJV or any other version that these very words are in the Bible.
Guess what, you will not find it because it does not exist.
22 Comments
January 18, 2009 at 8:42 am
You assume the other kid got his information from a responsible adult. That was your first mistake. A simple “I understand Johnnie that this sounds hurtful but it isn’t right. The other boy has it wrong.” I suggest you consider just advising the boy that not everyone believes the same thing and you and your family know better.
January 18, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Actually, it is not based upon assumption. The reality is that my stepson informed his mother that his “friend” whom related to him that he was destined for Hell because he is a Mormon was told this by not only his uncle – who further informed his friend not to associate himself with my stepson – and that this child’s parents attend a Church close to where we live.
So, the assumption you are making is the actual mistake. Could you honestly be more presumptious in your comment? Were you there when the conversation took place? I think not.
Secondly, my stepson’s mother spoke to him and I had an opportunity to speak with him.
The main issue here: it was not “I believe Mormonism is wrong and I disagree with it”. That is something my stepson’s mother and I could very easily deal with, and yes, not everyone is going to agree with us. The issue is that this ten year old was influenced by a responsible adult to make a statement of judgement that is reserved for God and God alone. Do I have the right to declare that someone is condemn to hell because they believe something? No, I do not because the minute I do is the very minute I am exalting myself above God and declaring myself God. The determination of who will reside where in the coming eternities is not for us to decide.
Now, don’t mistake this with the fact that we do have a right and responsibility to declare that which is morally wrong and sinful. It is done on the basis of what God’s word has declared. It is what God has already decreed. This is not passing Judgement, this is what is already established, but as long as we do it with a qualified statement that it is God who will judge the righteous and the wicked.
January 19, 2009 at 9:00 am
I do not agree with the heavy handed way that this child handled the situation. There is a much better way to handle this than just to tell someone that “they are going to hell”. However, Timothy, I don’t think you are understanding the position the Evangelicals take on this. It is not “I” who condemns a person to hell. I have ZERO authority to do that. It is God who does the condemning and He gives us the reason for this in the Bible… people sin and don’t know Christ as their Savior.
I do know what the word of God says and I do have a responsibility to communicate what it says to people. The Word of God says that the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.
Evangelicals take the position that Mormons are not Christian… that they are following a FALSE CHRIST and are therefore, headed for hell.
So, this question this blog is trying to answer is really rooted in another question. Do Mormons know Christ? If Mormons REALLY DO KNOW CHRIST than they are fine. However, IF THEY DON’T KNOW CHRIST than they are going to hell and we as Christians have a responsibility to tell them that they are on the wrong path… in the hope of bringing them to Christ. That is what we are commanded to do by God.
So, the better way to look at what this young man did is this… he was doing (although in the wrong way IMO) what he feels is his repsonsibility from God – informing a Mormon that they are on the wrong path because they do not know Christ. In addition, the better question to ask is, is he right? As we discussed in a previous post on your blog, I believe the answer to that is, yes he is right.
Darrell
January 19, 2009 at 9:28 am
Darrell Wrote:
I do not agree with the heavy handed way that this child handled the situation. There is a much better way to handle this than just to tell someone that “they are going to hell”.
My Response:
Yes, what I informed my stepson was this: “It would be one thing for someone to say, ‘I believe that Mormonism is wrong’ Simply because this is stated on opinion and perception. There is no judgment or condemnation within that statement; but the fact that he said ‘because you are a Mormon, you are going to Hell’ is not just judgmental, but taking upon oneself the authority of God.
Darrell:
However, Timothy, I don’t think you are understanding the position the Evangelicals take on this. It is not “I” who condemns a person to hell. I have ZERO authority to do that. It is God who does the condemning and He gives us the reason for this in the Bible… people sin and don’t know Christ as their Savior.
My Response:
Actually, this is where you stand corrected. You only know of me from what you are reading here on the blog post. Outside of that, you do not know my life, nor any aspect as to my understanding of those things pertaining to religion. Yes, I understand very well the position Evangelical Christians take. I understand very well the position alot of those who have left the LDS Faith take when they embrace modern Evangelical thought. I used to adhere to the Reformed (calvinistic) traditions of doctrine, used to post on CARM’s message forums about how and why Mormon Doctrines are false and not biblical. So, to speak very presumptiously without any knowledge of my understanding of things is a very dangerous reasoning to base one’s argument upon.
Now, I do agree with you that we all have “ZERO” authority as to condemnation. And, yes, the Bible declares that those who remain in darkness are condemned. However, it is the responsibility of the Christian, not to condemn but to call one unto repentence. Because, that is exactly what Christ did – Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. We are to call people unto repentence not condemn them unto damnation.
Darrell:
I do know what the word of God says and I do have a responsibility to communicate what it says to people. The Word of God says that the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.
My Response:
No disagreement there. And, yes, Christ is the only way one is able to gain eternal life. However, one would say Mormons (like myself) have not an understanding of who the Biblical Christ is.
Darrell:
Evangelicals take the position that Mormons are not Christian… that they are following a FALSE CHRIST and are therefore, headed for hell.
My Response:
And yet, this is based upon misrepresentation of Latter-day Saint Doctrine and beliefs, conjectures based upon quotations of past General Authorities statements that are taken out of context and built up as a “straw man argument” as though some Evangelical Apologists have exposed the “Mormon Error”. It is unfortunate that such things occur. The reality of it all is this: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not ONLY BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, but understand his whole purpose and atonement more so than some of the Evangelical Christians I have personally met and talked with – both while growing up inside of the LDS Church and outside of the LDS Faith.
Darrell:
So, this question this blog is trying to answer is really rooted in another question. Do Mormons know Christ? If Mormons REALLY DO KNOW CHRIST than they are fine. However, IF THEY DON’T KNOW CHRIST than they are going to hell and we as Christians have a responsibility to tell them that they are on the wrong path… in the hope of bringing them to Christ. That is what we are commanded to do by God.
My Response:
I would not venture to say that All Mormons know and understand Christ, and neither could you venture to say that all Evangelical Christians know Christ. Granted, there are some within both faiths that claim to know and understand Christ but their fruit and behavior are contrary to what they confess. It is one thing to say “Christ is my Lord and Savior” and do nothing in their life to show forth their devotion and obedience to Christ and follow his example and grow in their faith. It is another thing to live one’s life in conforming to the will of God by seeking God in their life and being obedient to the established commandments of God. Both of which compliment each other – Salvation by Grace and a life of obedience to the principles of the the Gospel.
Darrell:
So, the better way to look at what this young man did is this… he was doing (although in the wrong way IMO) what he feels is his repsonsibility from God – informing a Mormon that they are on the wrong path because they do not know Christ. In addition, the better question to ask is, is he right? As we discussed in a previous post on your blog, I believe the answer to that is, yes he is right.
My Response:
It may very well be that as the manner in which he (the young boy) went about and did what he did was wrong, I disagree with your assertion and belief that Mormons are on the wrong path and destined for condemnation.
I believe the answer is this: It is not just whether or not someone has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, but it is a matter of one having accepted Christ as Lord and Savior and make every available effort within their power to be obedient to the established principles of the Gospel and that based upon their faith and their life is what God looks upon. This is a very very hard concept for modern Evangelicals to grasp and understand, but the reality of this is that Christ himself has declared that if a man repents and comes unto him and do the will of the Father, that he will have eternal life.
January 19, 2009 at 10:17 am
Of course, Timothy, you’ll answer only what you want, right? Still waiting on an answer to the entire post you dedicated to my response to you on an earlier topic, which you’ve never replied to.
Based on that, can I assume that you agreed with all I said?
Timothy, you accuse others of making assumptions, yet you make a lot of assumptions in what you say. In fact, if I recall, I brought that up in the post I’m referring to, which continues to go unanswered.
You can talk about “straw-man arguments” all you want, Timothy. I’m not saying I, or anyone, will ever convince you otherwise. Doesn’t mean I’ll stop trying, and doesn’t mean that if you’re not convinced, you’re right, either.
January 19, 2009 at 10:59 am
Timothy,
I think what this really boils down to is Do Mormons believe in the correct Christ. I cannot speak about what YOU believe as I do not know you. I can, however, speak very authoritatively about what the LDS Church teaches. I was a member for several years and based my beliefs on what the LDS Scriptures and modern day prophets teach. Based upon those I do not believe the LDS Teaching on the Nature of God and Christ is correct. I believe they teach “another” Jesus which the Bible warns very clearly about.
So that I can better understand your position would you mind sharing 2 things with me.
1) What DO YOU UNDERSTAND the teaching of the LDS Church to be about the Nature of Christ and the Nature of God?
2) What is your personal belief on The Nature of God and the Nature of Christ?
Thanks!!
Darrell
January 19, 2009 at 5:18 pm
According to the Apostle Paul:
Galatians 1:8,9)
But Though we (Paul and his associates), or an Angel from Heaven (Joseph Smith received “another Gospel” from a supposed Angel) Preach any other gospel unto you (Jesus Christ of the Bible, and him crucified) Let Him Be Accursed (eternally condemned; The Holy Spirit speaks this through the Apostle Paul, this means that Joseph Smith is accursed and damned to hell for preaching another gospel. And you can only be saved by receiving the True Gospel as The Holy Spirit and faith are only imparted through the preaching of the true gospel)
As we said before, so say I now again (Paul repeating to emphasize the seriousness of the issue) If ANY man Preach any other gospel unto you (again anything other than Jesus Christ of the Bible, and him crucified) than that you have received (from Paul and his associates) let him be accursed (eternally condemned, which means the loss of the soul)
Looks pretty clear to me! Although what the young man said to your son may sound harsh, he was actually being true to God’s Word.
January 19, 2009 at 5:36 pm
you said:
“and make every available effort within their power to be obedient to the established principles of the Gospel and that based upon their faith and their life is what God looks upon.”
I say:
This is not the Gospel, it is actually in opposition against the Gospel. No man can be justified by his “effort”
Salvation is a free gift of God,coming through faith alone in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Again from the Apostle Paul:
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (not justified before God by his own effort to follow a moral law), but by faith in Jesus Christ (Faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and what he did at the Cross), even we have believed in Jesus Christ (The object of faith must always be The Jesus Christ of the Bible and the Cross), that we might be justified by the Faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shal no flesh (man) be justified (emphatically so! it cannot be done)
And the Apostle Paul says:
Galatians 2:18:
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (revert back to effort) I make myself a transgressor (to revert back to any type of effort is a departure from God’s prescribed Order of Victory ie faith in Jesus Christ of the bible and The Cross, is a sin)
And also:
Galatians 2:21:
I do not frustrate the Grace of God (if you make effort part of the belief in Jesus Christ then you frustrate the Grace of God, which means we stop its action and the Holy Spirit will no longer help you) For if Righteousness (salvation) came by the Law (any type of self effort to be justified before God) the Christ Died in Vain (If I can successfully live for God by my own effort then the death of Christ was a waste)
January 19, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I will deal with this further, but I have one question for you:
Did or did not Christ say that we must “obey”? If he did not teach that we must obey, then is Christ a Liar? If he is a liar, then does that make him a false christ?
Do you understand what Sanctification means? I ask this because most Christians that I have dialogued with (such as yourself) actually possess a misunderstanding of Salvation and Obedience to the commandments. This is where the error and frustration is. OF course, we can’t save ourselves from our sins. Of course we can’t in any way break the bondage of sin and death.
But, once we are free, we are to live according to what? Live according to the will of God.
You mention Paul, the Apostle. Do you know what he said about Grace and Righteous living in Romans 6 verse 1? Would you say that Paul is contradicting himself then?
Again, I will come back and deal with this more fully but those are questions I would like you to ponder. Because according to your statement here, you are insinuating that it does not matter if we live a life that is good and righteous before a Holy God, as long as we confess that Christ is our savior, all things are going to be okay no matter whether we are continuing in sin or not.
January 19, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I will come back to this and actually combine both of your comments into one post.
January 19, 2009 at 5:52 pm
And, I used to make a similar statement over at CARM. And, looking back upon it now, it is not because I was a faithful member of the Church, it was because I never really understood for myself. Much like those who profess to be Christians may never truly taste the wonderful power of Redemption and forgiveness of Sins.
However, there is very strong evidence that supports many doctrines of the Latter-day Saint faith than there are in support of the Christian faith. The main points of doctrine is that we do not perscribed to a philosophical understanding of who God is.
Here is a question for you. Christ is the second member of the Trinity, of the same essence and substance as that of the Father. If God could not possess a body of flesh and bone why then was Christ resurrected and why did he ascend into heaven after 40 days? Why do the New Testament apostles say that when he comes again, we will see him in a glorified resurrected body?
Wouldn’t this mean that because Christ now possess a body of flesh and bone that is resurrected and glorified that he is now of a different substance and essence of God?
That is what my understanding of the LDS position on the nature of God. That they are separate and distinct from one another and that they are one in unity and divine purpose. And, it is my personal belief and not that of Valentinus Gnostic conception of God being a metaphysical being without parts or passions – which by the way Valentinus was declared a Heretic in 2nd century and yet his doctrine on the nature of God is captulated in the Nicene and Athenasius Creed
January 19, 2009 at 5:53 pm
First off, I will respond with generalities where someone makes generalized statements. Secondly, as you stated beforehand, it is a circular argument when we get off topic chase down rabbit trails as to who is doing what and why.
The reason I did not respond to your last comment was because that was where you wanted to take the conversation.
January 19, 2009 at 6:10 pm
You said:
“Did or did not Christ say that we must “obey”? If he did not teach that we must obey, then is Christ a Liar? If he is a liar, then does that make him a false christ?”
I say:
The Word of God is a holistic document, it in its entirety is the mind of God, you cannot take a verse just as you have done above and say see Jesus said obey so that means its all up to me to obey. But that is a false representation of What Jesus taught. You have to put every word he said into the context of ALL that he said in its totallity
Jesus said:
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God” (Luke 18:27)
Salvtion is a gift of God and when we receive salvation we are given a helper: The Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit helps us to live a righteous life. that is why we should not increase in sin after salvation but decrease in sin (sanctification) but sanctification is learning with the help of the Holy Spirit to bring our flesh under control (wanting to be justifed by self effort) and be more attuned to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and God speaking to us to direct our lives.
However as long as we live in this fallen fleshly body we will face temptation to sin, and we will sin, but what we do not do is try of our own effort to not sin. If we sin we pray to Jesus and via his righteousness we have access to the Holy Spirit to help us overcome.
What the Apostle Paul was referring to in Romans 6:1 was that if we are not living by faith alone which os the only way the Holy Spirit works in us, we will fall back into trying to be righteous by our own effort and we will fail, and we will lose the help of the Holy Spirit and our sin will increase. Sin will reign in our bodies. you see part of the sin is as Galatians says above: thinking we can of our own effort be righteous.
January 19, 2009 at 6:36 pm
So, then you believe in Sanctification and what the Apostle Paul said regarding on putting off the things of the flesh.
Now, if I understand you here, you are accusing me of taking something out of context. But, are you the one that actually inserted your own interpretation into Galatians and adding to the meaning of Galatians that the Apostle Paul did not mean?
Sanctification is not living according to our former selves, but living unto God. This is not just something Christ taught, but that the Apostle Paul himself taught.
And, yes, you are right we are not to take one passage and build a doctrine out of it.
So, Christ in the parable of the sheep and the goats, who did he say are those workers of iniquity? Those who did not do what? The fact is, when you do look at the whole of scripture and what Christ says, you realize that Christ says we must come to him and 1) Believe on Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior; 2) Repent of our sins and take upon him his name; 3) Follow after him.
And, the most interesting thing: Christ said that there are two great commandments. The first is this: To love the Lord your God with all your might mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two great commandments hang all the prophets and the law.
And, regarding the law, did Christ fulfill all of the law? Or did he fulfill the Sacrificial component of the Law? It was the fulfillment of the Sacrificial component of the Law because he is, after all, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the World. And, there is no other name under Heaven which Men can be saved but by and through Jesus Christ. However, what does a person who, after their salvation, realizes and repents of their sins, what do they do? How ought they to conduct themselves? Should they continue to fornicate? Should they continue to steal? God forbid – is what the Apostle Paul says. Why? Because of the fundamental importance of the principle of baptism. When we are baptized, we are baptized unto his death and are buried unto Christ and are resurrected with a newness of life and it is our covenant with Christ that we will go and sin no more. Now, yes, we are not going to live a perfect life because of sin and temptation, but does that men we go out and continue in sin that grace may abound? No, because we are held accountable.
What does the New Testament say men will be judged by? Their works, and this is talking about those who are believers.
So, how is this a false Gospel? It is a false Gospel when someone does not agree with the reality that we are to hold ourselves accountable and understand the true meaning of Salvation that it is not just a confession to believe – because anyone could do that p-but it is a committment to live according to and after the will of God each and every day.
Do you say to your wife or Children “I love you” but walk contrary to that statement?
January 19, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Timothy,
Do you believe that Christ is the firstborn spirit son of God the Father?
Darrell
January 19, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Timothy,
If you would not mind… when you start a comment would you please direct who it is too in at the beginning. You are conversing with three different people (Me, John and Brad). I am having trouble detecting who each comment is directed towards. Thanks so much!!
Darrell
January 19, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Darrell,
I definitely will. I am still acquainting myself with how WordPress works and responding to comments… forgive me of my ineptness as an amature blogger here. My apologies. It is that I am accustomed to “quoting” and responding via message forum input and not here..
January 20, 2009 at 2:38 am
Timothy,
Thank you.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the first born spirit son of God the Father?
Darrell
January 20, 2009 at 6:32 am
Because according to your statement here, you are insinuating that it does not matter if we live a life that is good and righteous before a Holy God, as long as we confess that Christ is our savior, all things are going to be okay no matter whether we are continuing in sin or not.
Timothy, would you please provide a direct link or quote that shows where this “insinuation” took place here? I’d be interested to see it. This is a common argument that is used (often by Mormons, but I have seen it by JW’s as well) to try to set up an argument that isn’t even being espoused by the person who is arguing for faith alone. NOBODY has said that we can live “however we want” after acknowledging Christ, since we’re “saved” at that point – again, I ask you to show me where someone said that on here, b/c if it was directly said, I must have missed it. In fact, Paul directly refutes this line of thinking in Romans! It’s an argument that YOU are trying to make, that hasn’t been proposed by anyone other than yourself!
We cannot live “however we want” after salvation, b/c we are called to live according to God’s will. You get no argument from me on that. However, this still ducks the question as to what saves you – faith alone, or faith PLUS a lifelong obedience to various rules and commands. That is the question here, Timothy. You can’t set up an argument that nobody but yourself has stated.
January 20, 2009 at 6:34 am
However, there is very strong evidence that supports many doctrines of the Latter-day Saint faith than there are in support of the Christian faith. The main points of doctrine is that we do not perscribed to a philosophical understanding of who God is.
Please provide links, or point us to all of this “evidence” that is a stronger supporter of Mormonism than Christianity. Coincidentally, by wording your statement the way you did, you have inherently stated that Mormons aren’t Christians, b/c you yourself make a distinction between the “LDS faith” and the “Christian faith.” Just wanted to point that out to you…
January 20, 2009 at 6:36 am
Here is a question for you. Christ is the second member of the Trinity, of the same essence and substance as that of the Father. If God could not possess a body of flesh and bone why then was Christ resurrected and why did he ascend into heaven after 40 days? Why do the New Testament apostles say that when he comes again, we will see him in a glorified resurrected body?
Was Christ, all at once, fully man and fully God? Do you believe that? If not, then I can see your dichotomy – and hence the issues we’re talking about here about believing in a different Christ. If so, there is no problem.
January 22, 2009 at 2:54 pm
[...] It is the very same attitude of these Jewish-Christians (or Judiazers) that modern Christian Apologists implement in their arguments to deny the Apostleship of the General Authorities of the Latter-day Saint Christian Faith, limiting it to the Original Twelve apostles of Christ. Discredit the authority of the person, one ultimately discredits the nature and purpose of the message being delivered. A very serious charge to make and buy into – one of which a commentator has taken upon themselves to perform: [...]